Chapters & Episode Notes:
0:00 – Introduction: Devin Bramhall on Authentic Authority & Leadership
4:39 – Building Authority: Confidence, Clarity & Taking Action
9:11 – Success Without a Plan: Focus on Now & Ask for What You Want
16:59 – Ditch the Buzzwords: How to Create Meaningful Marketing
25:53 – Gaining Recognition: Focus, Consistency, and Finding Your Niche
28:57 – Getting Noticed Without Social Media – The Smarter Approach
37:45 – Short-Term Wins vs. Long-Term Growth: Striking the Right Balance
46:32 – Outro
Transcript
Devin: You’re not building authority solely based on what you know.
Patrick: We’re going to be chatting with Devin Bramhall about how solopreneurs can build authority in their market.
Devin: You’re building authority by what you contribute to the community.
Patrick: We’re going to explore the benefits of being brave and asking for what you want.
Devin: It isn’t ever about knowing your future. It’s about knowing your now, and where I see people get the most stuck is in the asking part.
Patrick: The power of being confident in the choices that you make.
Devin: It’s not about being fearless. It’s about being full of fear and using that as your energy to go forward.
Patrick: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Plugin.fm. My name is Patrick Rauland, and I’m here with my new co-host, Goran Mirkovic, content marketing specialist and the CMO at Freemius. With all the house cleaning out of the way, let’s jump in. Welcome to the show, Devin.
Devin: Hi, thanks for having me. It’s so great to be here.
Patrick: I am really excited to chat with you. So normally, I’d say we do a little bit of a longer intro where we like to build up our guests just so that they have authority, but that is what today’s topic is all about. So I would love to hear from you—who are you, and why should people listen to you?
Devin: Well, first of all, I love that we are not doing those traditional intros because they always make me squirm, so thank you very much. And my simple answer is they shouldn’t listen to me. They shouldn’t. You know, the authority that I’ve built doesn’t deserve anything, right? It’s my job to keep earning it from the people that I want to help, and so they shouldn’t do anything.
Why I think certain people could benefit from that is because of my career, right? And so, like, I have a long experience in the B2B SaaS world, in marketing in particular, and growing agencies. I’ve done a lot of sort of side hustle things, from growing, you know, content marketing groups that were built for education and networking and career development to starting my own event series in B2B SaaS.
I have a podcast where myself and Margaret Kelsey talk about sort of the leadership situation in marketing right now, kind of like, you know, instead of going for tactics, now we’re like, “Okay, we’ve been in this industry for a long time. Like, we see now there are problems at the leadership level that just aren’t being talked about.”
And so, you know, why someone might follow me is because I have a ton of experience, I’ve done a lot of things, and therefore I have some perspective. I have some skills and talents, and, you know, I might be able to help them level up in their career in some way. But nobody should. And you come at it like that, you know, I’m just like, “Nah.”
Goran: Yeah, I can speak from first-hand experience as a person who used to work with Devin for a couple of years that, you know, Devin is a type of leader that usually, you know, leads by example, and everyone I know in marketing who has some contact with Devin has said the same thing—that she is a magnetic personality that just kind of lures you in with her energy.
And I’m just excited to really take a topic like this and just kind of dissect it really to what it actually means, building, you know, authority versus giving people some playbooks or something that feels kind of scripted and lazy, and just talked about first-hand experiences with someone who I know personally is an authority in the space.
Devin: Thank you, Goran. I will never forget our first interview when I interviewed him—he was interviewing for a strategist role—and I was like, “This is one of the most interesting conversations I’ve ever had in the hiring process. Ever.” Like, we were legit bantering. He didn’t sit there and try to, like, answer my questions, right? He was like, “This is what I think,” and I was like, “What about—” and it was like—that’s when I knew. I was like, “You are—please come work here.”
Goran: Thank you, I will again.
Patrick: There are some people who just have that confident vibe, and that definitely gives you, like, an authority—or, I guess, just a confidence.
Devin: Yeah, like, look at all those people who are basically saying nothing on LinkedIn and are very confident about it, and people follow them for some reason, right? And so that’s why I say, I’m like, “You shouldn’t do anything. Vet for yourself. See what’s resonating and what works for you.” Because God knows there’s plenty of confident people like me out there pretending like they know stuff. And I’m one of them.
Patrick: Okay, so you’ve done a lot in your career. You went from basically content to the CEO role. I don’t know many people that have done that—it seems rare to me. Now that you have a title, titles give authority, right? But before you have a title, how do you build authority? How do you get people to listen to you?
Devin: That is a great question. I would say the first thing that I did—starting before I was even trying to get the CEO role—was I believed in my own ideas. And so I remember I was working in marketing for this little baby startup called Springpad back in Boston. It was my first time in a content marketing role, and we were trying to solve a problem, which was—in our local network, we weren’t very well known. And so they were trying to build author—authority locally in the Boston area.
And I started off going to all these events, these networking events, and that was exhausting—there were so many to go to. And I thought, “What if I bring the people to me? Then I do one event, and I meet tons of people—but it’s mine, right? And there’s a more lasting impression for the brand.” And that’s why I created the Master Slam.
And I will never forget, there was no reason. I had no authority. There was no reason for anyone to do it. And I asked my boss to introduce me to Marco Tulle, who was running a PR agency in Boston at the time—very well-known, like, big deal. And I just called him up, and I was like, “Hey man, I’m doing this event. Here’s what it entails, here’s what I need you to do.” And I was like, “And I really want you to say yes.” I was like, “I really just want, I know it sounds weird, but just, like, say yes and trust me.” And he was like, “Honestly, I have no idea what this is. I don’t fully understand it, but it sounds really cool. I’m in.”
And, you know, I think what that—like, the lesson I learned from that is, like, that “fake it till you make it,” that having confidence before you should, and just believing in yourself—like that is it. I would have to say that. Like, just having a relentless desire and focus on getting what I wanted in my career and going—moving at the pace that I wanted, that I was ready for—or actually, not always ready for—that really does a lot to tune out the noise around, like, “Can I do this? Like, am I—?” You know, did I have those thoughts? Absolutely. But just being so focused on what I wanted just kind of helped me, like, ignore those most of the time and keep going. And that’s an important start. That’s a very important start.
The second thing was, in sort of, like, that middle period—I mean, literally—hold on, let me go back for a second. The confidence was the first thing. The second thing was—I was always very clear on what I wanted, and I asked for it. So when I was working at Springpad as a customer service person, I wanted to move into content marketing. I got another job that wasn’t even content marketing, went to my then-CEO, and was like, “I know we don’t even have, like, a role for this right now, but this is what I want to do.” And I was like—and he was like, “Okay, go to Jacine. She’s about to take over for me as CEO. Buddy up to her.”
And I didn’t even tell him I had another job. I just did it. So I had the confidence that, like, if they were like, “No, and how dare you ask?” I wouldn’t feel threatened, and I could go at it with confidence. And I did that every step of the way in my career.
Patrick: I generally like to start a project with the end in mind, but Devin doesn’t believe that you need to know the future—you just need to know what’s valuable for you to do right now. Keep listening to see why.
Goran: One thing that I noticed that you said here, which I think is really interesting—you basically said that you always knew what you wanted to do. But for most people, I think that part is actually really hard because their goals are usually like, “I want to make X amount of money,” or, “I want to be in this position because of reasons,” right? They’re not really kind of super clear on what they want. So can you share some basic advice on how you basically, you know, kind of narrow down to that one thing you really, really want? Because, like, all of us have a lot of different ideas, and getting to what you want in this sense, as you said—basically showing up and, you know, just constantly showing up and asking questions—requires really set determination to the goal that you outlined.
Devin: No, I’m glad you asked that because I should clarify—I, at no moment, including now, have had any idea what I wanted to do with my career or life. Like, I’ve got some stuff that I’m going to do for the next year and a half, but, like…
So it was more that in a moment where I did know what I wanted—and it was usually very small and specific—I wanted to be a content marketer. I wanted to be a content marketing manager. I wanted to develop this skill set, which required me to go in and put myself out there for this project that was happening, right?
And so it isn’t ever about knowing your future—it’s about knowing your now. And where I see people get the most stuck is in the asking part because they limit themselves. They’re like, “Well, you know, there isn’t an opportunity here for me to do that. There’s no role like that. Well, you know, they’ve said no to me in the past.” They develop all these reasons why they can’t, and I say—just ignore them. Go and ask for it anyway. And then if you don’t get it, keep agitating until you get it. And if you don’t get it, go find it somewhere else.
Patrick: Well, you know, we’re kind of talking about marketing this season, but this applies to your whole career—everything in life. I am shocked at how many people don’t ask for what they want. Like, just ask. And you know what? It can be scary, and you can take some steps like you did to have a backup option ready to go, but just ask. You would be shocked at how many people sometimes think, “Man, they’ll never give it to me,” and you just ask, and you’re like, “Oh wow, I got a raise just from asking for a raise. I didn’t know it could be that easy.”
Goran: Yeah, I kind of have a similar experience, and it actually ties back to Devin and how I ended up in the company that she used to run. Can you just refresh my memory—how many people did you interview for the strategist position when I was applying? Like, a thousand?
Devin: Not quite a thousand, but look, that was a—like, we had a lot of applicants. Like, hundreds for every single role. We had to ultimately filter hundreds of people. It was very hard to get to the interview stage. So to be perfectly honest, we didn’t interview that many people, and that’s because it took a while before you got to me, and it was really hard to get there.
It helps to think about a couple of things. One—someone saying no to you doesn’t mean anything about you. Honestly, even if the reason they said no was because of you, or like, you weren’t qualified or something, it still doesn’t mean anything about you, right?
A smart person will take that situation and, one, ask for feedback on why they were turned down—just in case there’s something that they can develop in themselves, right? But most of them, you know, after that, it’s like—see what you can get and learn from it, and then go and try again. Like, people say no to me all the time. I’ve been fired for who I am as a person. They’re like, “We don’t want you specifically to work here.” And I’m like—looking back, I’m like, “Actually, that kind of makes sense.”
And so, what do you have to fear? You know, I always tell people, I’m like, “Okay, so what happens if they say no?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s not going to feel good.” I’m like, “Okay, well, what happens after that? You’re not going to feel good.” And they’re like—well, you know, they can’t make their own argument. And so I’m like, “Why not take the chance?”
The second thing is—remember that every single thing in business is made up. Everything. These invisible rules that people feel constrained by, and then get resentful before they’ve taken any action. They’re like, “Well, it’s just that way.” I’m like, listen, I was a woman in tech during a time when no one gave any mind to DEI.
I remember starting at this one company, and I couldn’t figure out why they gave me everything I wanted coming in. I was like, “I want direct reports. I want to run these two departments. I want this title.” And I came in, and I was like, “Oh, I’m the only girl here. You needed a girl.”
And so, like, whatever you think—there’s no Wizard of Oz behind the scenes dictating how everything should be. There’s no God in business. At any given moment, every single business person is breaking the rules if they can create a unique advantage for themselves. So why not do it yourself?
I have played the system since I was a child, right? I went to college when I was 16—by just getting a GED, which, in America, is like—anyone can take the GED when they turn 16 and a half. I got into NYU without SAT scores because I suck at testing.
I didn’t end up going there because—turns out there were a lot of tests. No, they accepted me. I just didn’t go because it was too expensive. And then I became a big SMI fish in a small pond, and by the time I left college, there was literally a billboard with my face on it in the city on 93.
Like, there was an entire—they launched an entire ad campaign on the subway system that literally was like, “Devin Bramhall, Class of 2006.” And this is business, right? This wasn’t because I deserved it. It wasn’t because I was such a great person. It was because, from a business standpoint—because I had gotten involved in so many different programs at the school strategically—it made sense to launch with me.
Because, in highlighting one person, they were able to showcase many different departments in the university and how one can be successful through them, right? And if you get that—take that mindset, take all the personal stuff away, and stop thinking about what’s “right” and “wrong.” That’s not what business is about. Business isn’t about fairness. It’s not about equality. And it never will be. Ever.
And so what you have to do is go in, and if you want something—if it seems impossible—go become a strategist on your own behalf and try to get it. And sometimes you will, and sometimes you won’t.
Patrick: The marketing world uses a lot of jargon. What does the word “content” even mean? The word is hard to define, and that makes doing content marketing challenging. Listen to what Devin suggests you do instead of creating content.
A good chunk of our audience consists of people who develop their own software or run small software teams. A lot of authority comes from that. I think we’ve been talking about in-person interactions, which are really important, but we also communicate online. Lots of people communicate via blogs, newsletters, and the written word. So, I would love to talk a little bit about content—specifically, why shouldn’t we say “content”? Why is that a no-no in your world?
Devin: It’s my vendetta against buzzwords. The marketing world is guilty of using too much jargon, and when you use words that don’t have inherent meaning and are highly interpretable, you’re not communicating clearly and effectively. That’s especially important in the B2B space because, as you mentioned, B2B SaaS is largely run by product people and engineering people. Even when you think about marketers nowadays, the marketing function that B2B SaaS serves is very technical—not completely, but the foundations are technical. So, there’s a lot of value in speaking with specificity and clarity. That’s how you build authority.
And I think that’s something product and engineering founders do really well inherently, which is why it’s so easy for them to build authority in their space—it’s simple and straightforward. That audience is simple: if you say smart things, you will build authority. That’s it. Just say smart things. Contribute net-new code, thoughts on code, or perspectives.
It’s very different from marketing, where reputation and popularity play a bigger role. That’s why I think “content” is a useless word. Replace it. Pretend “content”—I’m using air quotes—is any word that doesn’t have meaning on its own. Replace it with the actual thing you’re talking about, and automatically, your words will have more power, influence, and authority.
Patrick: This reminds me of a book. I generally read a lot of business books, but I do remember reading one or two books about writing. One piece of advice that stuck with me was to always use the action verb that describes exactly what you’re talking about. For example, instead of saying, “Patrick makes this thing do this thing,” it’s just, “Patrick does this thing.” It’s always more direct and obvious to people.
So let’s say you’re a founder, putting on your marketing hat, and you say, “We’re going to create content.” That doesn’t mean anything. But if you change that to, “We’re going to create code tutorials”—wow, that’s so much more focused and specific. You tell that to someone else on your team, and now they can do it with you, for you, or in conjunction with you.
Devin: And this is why I don’t believe in playbooks. Even with that example—okay, say “code tutorials,” but I don’t think every founder should do code tutorials. It depends on the software you’re developing and the customers you’re serving.
A lot of times, founders don’t realize they already know their customers. They already know what they want—all they have to do is give it to them. Usually, the answer to what “content” you should create—what word you should replace “content” with—is right in front of them. They just have to do it.
Patrick: Sometimes marketing can be too abstract, and sometimes it’s just really obvious. Often, it’s as simple as, “Oh, I read these three blogs or listened to these three podcasts. I should make content like that.” Or, “I should submit content to them and see if they’ll publish it for me.” Sometimes marketing is obvious—you just need to take that first step.
Devin: Yeah, I remember working with a client at Animalz way back. It was a software company for insurance brokers or something. I remember talking to the head of marketing there, and I said, “All right, man, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say these guys probably aren’t Googling answers to their questions.”
And he was like, “You are right. They’re very analog.” I said, “Cool. So, there are probably, what, three conferences a year that all of them go to?” And he was like, “Correct.” I said, “So what you really need is for us to make something you can literally print out and bring to this conference. Am I right?” And he was like, “Yes.” That’s still content. People don’t realize that. A lot of founders think, “I have to do social, I have to do XYZ.” No, you don’t. Where are your people?
Patrick: A lot of small teams listen to this, and there are also solopreneurs—people who are a team of one. Do you have any advice on what a solopreneur should do in terms of creating content? I have a quick thesis: I think you should focus on the channel you’re best at or most passionate about because that way, you’ll actually get it done. Your thoughts?
Devin: I think so—yes, as long as that’s where your customers are. If your customers are there too, that’s great. Solopreneurs have a simple job: go where your customers are. Hopefully, that’s also where you love to be. Forget all the other places and do two things:
- Talk about your thoughts, opinions, and strategy in your area of expertise—this should be about two-thirds of what you share.
- The other third should be telling people what you do, letting them know you’re available for hire, and explaining how to get in touch with you.
That should be happening on a monthly basis. Let me give you an example. When I left Animalz, all I did was post on LinkedIn once. I didn’t even have a plan. And in the first six months, I made around $100,000 in consulting work. By then, I had been in space for a long time, Animalz had a strong reputation, and people knew me.
But after that, there was a natural lull. I was posting on LinkedIn, speaking at Inbound, and putting myself out there, but I didn’t understand why people weren’t knocking down my door anymore. Then I talked to my friend Kate Deo, who’s really good at this stuff, and she said, “Well, did you tell anybody what you’re doing? Have you said you’re available?” And I was like, “…No.”
She said, “So, you think people are just going to bang down your door because you exist? Queen, that’s not how it works.” And I was like, “Fair.” Because all people saw on my LinkedIn was that I had a podcast—that was the most visible thing. I had a one-page website, and no one knew what I did. I didn’t even know what I did! In the beginning, I was just making it up based on what people asked me for.
So yes, you need to create content in the channels where your potential customers are. That content needs to add something net-new to the conversation. And you need to regularly say, “Hi, I’m available for hire. Hire me.” You also need to ask your friends, “Hey, will you share this?” You have to do the bottom-of-the-funnel work and close. You can’t just put stuff out there and expect people to come to you. I am a firsthand solopreneur example of that.
Patrick: Fantastic. Love it. Goran, I think you had a couple of questions?
Goran: Yeah. My main question is this: if we boil this down to building authority, let’s say Devinis born again—like all prior experience, authority, and relationships don’t exist. You’re starting from ground zero.
We’ve talked about two key components of building authority:
- Specificity.
- Showing up consistently.
For someone who’s not a natural communicator—especially someone technical—how do they actually get to specificity and showing up? Those seem like the two main things that check the box for building authority.
Devin: Yeah. Actually, to Patrick’s example of picking a channel you’re enthusiastic about—when I became more deliberate about my solopreneur brand and getting business, one of my biggest concerns was staying in the conversation, remaining relevant, and being visible.
That was one of the biggest drivers behind launching Don’t Say Content with Margaret. I wanted to make sure my brand was still out there. I love recording podcasts, so I thought, “Great, I’ll record podcasts.” I wanted to have strategic-level conversations because those are the people I want as customers. I wasn’t going to be the person doing content calendars anymore—I’m way too expensive for that now.
That podcast kept me visible, maintained my authority, and kept my brand in the conversation.
The reason I bring this up in relation to your question is that it’s the same for an engineer. They don’t have to be visible on LinkedIn or Twitter. They can be active on Reddit threads, technical forums, or wherever their people are.
There’s a misconception that building authority means being popular on social media. That’s not true.
For example, Animalz started off as a “sneaky” brand. I used to say, “If you’re in the know, you know us.” But if I went out into the general world, no one was freaking out about Animalz.
B2B marketing is a small pond within an already small pond of B2B SaaS. And even then, software companies overall make up only about 3% of the total economy. So within that, B2B SaaS is an even tinier niche.
Goran: Animalz didn’t serve the full spectrum of B2B SaaS but focused specifically on Series A, Series B companies.
Devin: Later on, yeah. I mean, we started off smaller.
Goran: Even smaller.
Patrick: To build authority, you don’t have to be on any one platform. You don’t have to be on Facebook, Google Ads, or LinkedIn. You can build authority even if it’s underground and you’re recommended from person to person. Listen as Devin digs into how Animalz started.
Devin: I just focused really hard on building authority in my small pond. I didn’t go for millions of followers. I didn’t go for, you know, that kind of YouTube-TikTok audience. I was like, “Those aren’t my people,” right?
It’s kind of similar to when we were latching Animalz onto this sort of long-tail keyword strategy. It was like, “Top-of-funnel keywords just bring—it’s a vanity metric. It brings you lots of people, most of whom are never going to buy from you, and it kind of tanks your—it compromises your lower-funnel metrics,” right? And so we were like, “Look, less traffic that converts better—doesn’t that sound better to you?”
So I think that’s why this is an easier time than ever to build authority, because you don’t need tons of volume. You just need to be where your people are, contribute something net new, and show up constantly—engage with others, right? So it’s not just about you being a megaphone. It’s about engaging in your community.
And I think the reason why that is so valuable is because at that point, you’re not building authority solely based on what you know. You’re building authority by what you contribute to the community—the value that you bring to other people on a one-to-one basis. You’re helping build other people up. You’re answering their questions. And that second part is way stickier and longer lasting than just your knowledge.
Patrick: One of the best metrics to measure your content success is how often people invite you to participate in projects. If you’re being invited, you’re being noticed, and people are also impressed with your work. Devin digs into that coming up.
Goran: This is all great advice, but I think what most people need to realize is that building authority is obviously a marathon, right? And so the level of engagement that you need to put in is obviously a lot.
Since you mentioned the cool thing—that this is completely different from chasing keywords and stuff like that—for most people, they can measure keywords, see if trends are rising in Ahrefs or SEMrush. But how do you measure the signals that your approach is getting stickier? Do you have any advice, or is it just the standard smell test—like, you can see if your conversations are rotten or not?
Devin: I mean, look, I’ve never paid much attention to metrics when it came to my own authority building at all. I think the signals that stood out to me, though, were when more people invited me to do stuff with them, right? Like, when Jay Zoback, back when I was just starting out, was like, “Hey, will you be on the board of Boston Content?” And then later, when he and Arisa, who founded it, both wanted to move on, they were like, “Hey, Devin, will you run it now? Will you be the executive director?”
Or when I got invited by the Startup Institute to give a seminar, and then I made it a regular thing. When I pitched a class to General Assembly, and they were like, “Great! Attendance was amazing. Will you keep doing this?” And then it kept being amazing, so I kept doing it.
You’re a person with a logical mind—don’t overcomplicate it. If people are responding to you—now, look, when you’re just starting out, it’s going to be tricky, especially if you’re trying to measure your authority based on how many people engage with you online, because that does take time, right? And to a certain extent, you are gaming the system a little bit.
But the people I know who have been really effective—and actually, Maria Delano is one of them. Actually, two people—Maria Delano and Erica Schneider—are two people who came out of nowhere.
By the time I noticed them—well, Maria came to me when she was still building her authority. She had started a marketing consultancy and was building up that business. She found people that had influence, and she asked their advice. She took them out to lunch, and she was unapologetic about it. She asked for advice whenever she wanted it. She waited until I said no, right?
And then, all of a sudden, she was on the map—giving all these talks, and everybody knew her. It was this really cool thing. She just shot up in two years, I think. Same with Erica Schneider. The funniest thing about Erica—she’s one of my good friends now—but by the time I knew who she was, she had like 80,000 followers on LinkedIn. Everybody knew her. She seemed famous. And I remember inviting her to a cocktail party I had before the Audience Plus conference earlier this year because it was right across the street from my house. I was like, “Cha-ching! Cool, let me invite people who are going to be in the area.” I was intimidated to meet her. I thought, “Surely she’s too cool for me, but I’m going to invite her.”
She was like, “Devin, I came to an event that Jimmy did for Superpath like two years ago, and you were there.” And I was like, “What? I don’t remember meeting you.” She said, “Yeah, you were too busy—people kept talking to you, and I didn’t, you know, we didn’t end up meeting.” She showed me the photo, and I was like, “You were there? Oh my God.” So we were both looking at each other like, “Holy shit,” right? And I would say that both Maria and Erica—they did it faster. They were more strategic than me. Because at the moment they were launching themselves, they knew what they wanted in that moment. I wouldn’t say that either of them were like, “I know what I want with my life,” but they both had something they were trying to build, and they were focused on making it go as fast as they could.
Startups do the same thing all the time—it’s why they hire content marketers, right? And sure, we have to say it’s a marathon. We do. Because when you’re dealing with organic authority building, you never know. But people run marathons at different paces. The people who are able to run faster train harder. They work harder. Sure, there are physical gifts and all that, but this isn’t a show about athleticism, so I’m going to gloss over that, right? But at the end of the day, if you want to run a marathon, you have to train for it. You have to work for it. You have to work for it constantly, and you have to forego other things, right? You’re not out partying the night before a 10-mile run.
Patrick: Having run one marathon and nearly dying from it, I can attest that you do have to make some sacrifices, and you do have to train.
Fun fact, Devin—I actually thought walking to work was training for the first time I tried to run a marathon. It was not. I did not finish that marathon. But there is something to just trying and failing—not failing miserably, but failing—and then, by the way, I learned from that. I did the work, and I finished the marathon the next year. But the audacity can sometimes help you get through big projects—just thinking, “I’m just going to try this. I’m just going to ask this person for exactly what I want.” Sometimes you get what you want, and sometimes you learn, “Oh, this is how I have to ask next time.”
Devin: I always thought this whole idea of failure was bogus because failure doesn’t mean you ask for something or try to make something happen and it doesn’t work.
Failure is giving up, yes, right? Failure is not acting. Failure is assuming you’re not going to get what you want. That is failure. Failure is not going for something and not doing it right the first time. You’re like, “Oh, there are running programs for this. Cool.” So I 100% agree with you. I really love that you said that—that’s really important to me too.
Patrick: If I was a solopreneur… sometimes you don’t even know if your idea is going to work. Or it’s like a side hustle, and you’re wondering, “Wow, can I spin this up to be big enough to be my full-time hustle?” I guess my question is: how do you balance short-term, immediate authority-building with wanting to see if this side hustle works in the next six months?
But I also think there’s something about having authority as an individual that lasts decades—that’s a little bit separate from, maybe, a software project I’m trying to promote or a landing page for a course I’m trying to sell. I guess, how do you balance short-term and long-term authority-building?
Devin: I’ll give you an example of myself right now. I’m known in the B2B marketing world, and therefore, me going out and saying, “I’m a consultant now,” and “I’m great at making agencies a lot of money—super profitable,” and “I’m really great at making B2B SaaS brands a thing with marketing”—that’s a place where it’s like, cool, I have authority there. I can continue to build on that.
You know, I had an opportunity come my way this summer from a publisher—me writing a book on B2B content marketing. That’s the long-term—I’m continuing to do that. Then there’s the side hustle balance of trying something in an area where you don’t already have that authority. I am launching a YouTube channel, and I’m not going to be talking about marketing or business strategy or any of that. I’m going after a completely new audience.
My strategy for doing that was, one, hiring an expert who could help me with the science. I knew what I wanted to talk about generally, I knew how to be on video and be relatable, but I didn’t know how YouTube works. So I found a guy—his name is Finn McKenty—and he charges $3,000 for this program that gets you to recording and publishing your first video. He teaches you the science and math, runs you through the narratives so you can clarify who you’re talking to, what you’re saying, and helps with all the technical aspects, like, “Look, here’s what a top-of-funnel video on YouTube looks like.”
And then, I’m just going to try it and see. That’s the whole plan. I had something I wanted to try and a cohort of people I wanted to help more. I wanted to make money off it, and I didn’t know how YouTube worked. Originally, I thought I was going to be talking about marketing, and then, through the process, he was like, “You could appeal to a way broader audience. Nobody in B2B marketing is really on YouTube anyway—this is not where your people are.” And I was like, “Cool, yeah, you’re right. They’re on LinkedIn, and I know where they are already.” So, yeah. I had an idea, I got help, and now I’m just trying it.
Goran: Yeah, I think this is especially interesting—what you said about help—because I think, for most people, even those who have a deep subject matter expertise, let’s say you’re a solopreneur or a developer who has figured out a solution and now you want to be vocal about it, but you don’t really have the necessary experience or communication skills to just kind of talk about it.
Do you think it’s beneficial for people to first get empowered or get some external help on how to refine their process before they run? Or is it just, you know, run and break stuff and collect yourself from the ground?
Devin: I’ve never been qualified for anything in my life. I didn’t know how to be a CEO—I was just like, “I want this. I think I can do it,” right?
And this is what I tell women especially all the time. I’m like, “How many men do you know who went out and asked for something and were like, ‘I’m going to make sure I study first’?” They were like, “Hey, I just want to do this. I want this.” And I was like, “That is a really admirable approach because it’s brave.”
Actually, that is probably the best—that’s the whole thing. It’s brave in multiple different ways. It’s putting yourself out there. It’s doing something that you don’t know how to do and are probably kind of scared to do, even though you want it. Like, you’re just throwing three sheets to the wind. You’re just like, “You know what? I’m just going to see what happens.”
Goran: Do you think that level of unpreparedness actually helps build authenticity?
Devin: I think being authentic builds authenticity.
One of the pieces of feedback I have gotten consistently throughout my life, across anybody I’ve met, is almost always said the exact same way: “What I love about you is you’re exactly the same everywhere you show up.”
And guess what? I’m not polished. My friend really needed my help today, and she was like, “Oh my God,” and I was like, “Yep, I’ve got to record a podcast, but it’s all good—they’ll be fine with it.” And she was like, “But—” and I was like, “Who cares?” Or, better—let me say this better—I don’t care. I’m like, “If you want me to do something, you want me for me, and you’re not going to be like, ‘Oh, your background isn’t right,’ or, ‘I heard the baby take a big poo,’” which actually happened during an actual recording.
It doesn’t matter. And that stuff adds to it a lot of the time. That’s the real world. It’s how I built authority as a leader—because all these young people were like, “Oh, she doesn’t act all CEO-y,” right? They’re like, “She talks to me like a human.” And so I think we’re in an age where it’s not the ’90s anymore. It’s not about the suit you wear or the hairstyle or your cardstock, right? It’s about you contributing something new to the conversation, being entertaining, and continuing to show up so people have a chance to get to know you. And then, they’ll show you along the way what tweaks they need from you—what they like and don’t like—and you’ll make alterations. It’s easier than ever, I think, and so I see no excuse not to try.
Patrick: The things that you just summarized—And I think the last one, I love: just be brave and be out there.
You cannot imagine—maybe it’s 20%—maybe 20% of the time I ask someone for a thing, they give it to me, and I’m like, “Pleasantly surprised—they gave it to me!”
Devin: That’s a good conversion rate.
Patrick: But yeah, like 20% of the things I want come for almost no effort, other than the risk of someone saying no—the nominal risk of my ego being bruised if someone says no—is just really, really powerful. And I also really appreciate your positivity here, Devin.
I think there’s a lot to be said about how you have no idea what’s going to come, so you might as well try. It’s about being brave and about asking, but I think being positive is just as important. Yeah, I’m taking a lot away from this.
Devin: One thing on bravery too—and Goran will remember this, because that was one of my values at Animalz, bravery, to me, means doing something you are absolutely terrified to do, something that makes your entire body tell you to run in the other direction, and doing it anyway. I have been uncomfortable my entire career. I’m uncomfortable right now. What the fuck do I know about starting a YouTube channel? And, like, you know what I mean? Even with consulting, I’m like, “I don’t know what the heck I’m doing—I made it up.” And so, it’s not about being fearless.
It’s about having tons of fear. It’s about being full of fear and using that as your energy to go forward.
Patrick: Yes! Yeah, it’s having fear and still taking a step forward. I love it. Thank you so much, Devin, for joining us and for sharing your insights.
Devin: This is one of my favorite podcasts I’ve been on. You guys run a really interesting interview—I enjoyed this so much. Thank you!
Patrick: And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, like, subscribe, and tell your friends so that we can keep enticing awesome guests like Devin to join us and share their remarkable journeys with you. And if you subscribe through the website, you’ll get early access to our future content.
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